The Deal Behind the Deal: Broker–BDM Chemistry & Partnership

[00:00:00] Narrator: CMP Talk, the Canadian Mortgage Professional Podcast.

[00:00:18] Fergal McAlinden: Well, hello again, and thanks for joining us on another edition of CMP Talk. I'm Fergal McAlinden, I'm the news editor here at CMP. As we all know, the relationship between business development managers and brokers is one of the most crucial in the mortgage industry, particularly in challenging and turbulent times like these. So today, we're going to be celebrating the power of partnership between brokers and BDMs with one of the top lenders in Canada and one of its best known brokers, who will share the secrets behind a relationship built on mutual respect, open communication and a shared commitment to delivering exceptional buy-in outcomes. From MCAN Home, I'm really pleased to welcome Leanne Conroy, Regional Director of Sales. And on the broker side, we have Leah Zlatkin, Chief Operating Officer and Mortgage Broker at Mortgage Outlet. Thanks to you both for joining us today. Leah and Leanne, how are things?

[00:01:05] Leah Zlatkin: Pretty good. Thanks for having us.

[00:01:08] Leanne Conroy: Pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:00:55] Fergal McAlinden: It's great to have you with us today. And I mean, a healthy broker-lender partnership. That's what we're talking about today. And Leah, maybe we'll start things with you. I mean... What does that look like for you, especially, as I mentioned, in a market like today where things aren't always very smooth?
 

[00:01:26] Leah Zlatkin: I think Leanne and I would both have very similar responses to this, although from the other side of things. One thing I would say is right now files are just getting more and more complicated. Every single deal that comes through the door is more hairy than the last. And so I think that the main thing that really helps the relationship and helps us move forward in a smooth manner is open communication and having the ability to have transparent conversations, to have open communication with our lender partners. And one of the things that Leanne and the team at MCAN do so well is making sure that those lanes of communication stay open, whether it's via email as we're getting updates on files or whether it's picking up the phone and actually having a conversation about a file. And when things get dicey, which they seem to get dicey a lot these days. It's about the lender partners and people like Leanne picking up the phone, calling us, letting us know that something is a bit amiss and working towards solutions together, saying that something's a problem—well, that's not very helpful—but saying that something's a problem and saying hey, here's our problem, here's how I think we can get to a solution, do you think this is feasible and working together towards that solution is the best way to actually get files to the finish line.
 

[00:02:45] Fergal McAlinden: Great stuff. Leanne, for you, is communication one of the big aspects?
 

[00:02:49] Leanne Conroy: I mean, definitely. Leah mentioned transparency and communication, but I'm going to kind of extrapolate the healthy relationship piece and really kind of compare it to just relationships in general in relationships in your own life. And that's where a healthy relationship is built on trust, communication, transparency, because you think about just the relationships you have with your children, parents, partners. It's deep. Right. And it is built on like that trust piece. So it's very easy to compare and to look at it like you would a friendship. You don't build a friendship or a healthy relationship in one day. It takes time. And that's why you have to keep fostering that, because you need to move forward and grow. And our lender business has to grow. The broker business has to grow. And it really, really takes time. So you have to kind of take a step back and look at it like it's a partnership.
 

[00:03:46] Leah Zlatkin: And, you know, I think that's a really good piece of context. Leanne and I have known each other for, well, I'd say probably over three years now. And in the beginning, the conversations were very transactional. Hey, here's where we're at on this deal. Where are you at on that? But I think by building a deeper relationship, a relationship where we kind of know each other's challenges and what we're working through, it really helps to create a little bit more empathy. And it also helps to create an understanding of, okay, well, you know, I can have an honest conversation with Leanne and say, hey, this file really needs to be prioritized right now. And I know that you guys are working on a lot of other things. I know you have five other files in the pipeline for us right now. These other four, we can put a little bit of a pause on them. This one has a COF or this one has a closing happening soon. It can't be delayed. Like, let's move forward on this one. Let's prioritize it. And we can help each other because we know what else is going on in each other's lives. And I feel like that's a big part of sort of that built relationship and that continuous communication and connection that we've sort of established over the years.
 

[00:04:50] Fergal McAlinden: So is there a particular deal that comes to mind in terms of something that maybe tested your partnership and any specific techniques that you worked to get through it? Leanne, for you?
 

[00:05:02] Leanne Conroy: I mean, definitely one that comes to mind was an emotional experience example, because we had a file and there were so many, obviously, there's so many parties involved. And it was a stressful deal from all sides. Like there's probably, you know, seven parties that are involved in this file. And I'm one of those people that kind of take things to heart. And I internalize at night when I'm supposed to be sleeping. That's my time to internalize. And I had sent an email to Leah and her partner. And I was just, I said, look, this is keeping me up at night. I cannot sleep. I'm so worried about this. And so we had scheduled a call the next morning to talk about the file. But we didn't talk about the file. You know, Leah got on the call and said, we're worried about you. And we don't want you not sleeping over this deal. And so the first thing out of her mouth was personal. Like, you need to be okay. And this is. You know, we're going to work through the file and it's going to close. And it, yay, it did close. But because we have that relationship together, she was like, hey, Leanne, like, let's talk about you first. And let's just, you know, bring some calm into your life here. 
 

[00:06:09] Leah Zlatkin: And I think that, you know, that's an important part. When everybody involved cares, that's how we really get to the finish line. And working with lenders who care about our clients getting to that happy ending, getting to that mortgage, getting to that purchase. That's a really big part about it. And, you know, for us as brokers and for our lender partners, we all worry about these clients. We all have their best interests at heart and we all think about them all the time. But for me, I know that every file is one of a hundred files that Leanne's team is going to touch this year. And I don't want any one file to break somebody's spirit or to make them feel like, you know, they're having trouble with managing things. And I know that we're going to find a solution. I know we're going to work our way through it. And together we can do that. And our mental health is not worth sacrificing. And we care about Leanne so much because she helps us with every single file. And she's navigating those files to the finish line. So I think that for me, it's really important to know that she's good and she's got her game face on and she's okay. And I don't want her to feel stressed about anything in particular because I need her for the other 99 files on her desk.
 

[00:07:17] Leanne Conroy: Just so you know, I'm feeling pretty good today.
 

[00:07:20] Leah Zlatkin: Love it. Feeling good most days because you're a rock star.
 

[00:07:23] Leanne Conroy: All right, I gotcha.
 

[00:07:25] Fergal McAlinden: Leah, how about anything come to mind for you in terms of a deal that you worked with Leanne and the team to get over the line?
 

[00:07:31] Leah Zlatkin: I remember very vividly a file that I worked on earlier in this year. Clients were not new to Canada necessarily. They'd been in Canada for a while, but English was certainly a barrier for communication. They had a very complicated first-time homebuyer purchase. They were buying the property with their nephew who lives in the basement. So it was a multi-generational purchase of a home. And I just remember having so many struggles trying to get documents from this family because they didn't understand what we were looking for. And we would ask for something very clearly and they'd provide us a document that didn't match up. And so working with Leanne and her team to actually figure out and finalize, okay, what is the bare minimum documents we need to get this to the finish line? What are the must-haves? How do we get this from them in a controlled way to get to the finish line? Because we were rapidly approaching their closing date, and they didn't seem to understand the urgency around it. And her team was really tremendous in making sure that we understood exactly what we needed. They helped us communicate to the clients. We were all sort of on the same team trying to get them to the finish line. And I remember it was a particularly stressful situation, but Leanne sort of held our hand the entire way and made sure that we got to the finish line. And that's really helpful for me, especially when we're working with clients who this is their first purchase. This is their first purchase in Canada. They care a lot about the house. They've already got the deposit down and they need to get to that finish line. And having partners who are going to help us get there really relieves a lot of stress on our part.
 

[00:09:06] Fergal McAlinden: That's great. And, you know, I have a question about what happens when operational issues arise, which we'll get to in a second. But I mean, one thing that stood out to me from both of your answers was just the amount of empathy that's involved on both sides, right? Whether it's with your clients, whether it's with each other, making sure that you're all good with the transaction. I mean, how big would you say that empathy, how big of a factor is it in your day-to-day collaboration with each other? Leanne, maybe we'll start with you.
 

[00:09:31] Leanne Conroy: Absolutely imperative. And again, I go back to, you know, the basics of a healthy relationship in being able to feel the other person's issues or emotions. And we say this all the time when we're presenting or we're presenting to the client or presenting to the to brokers that you have to put the shoe on the other foot. And it's, I'm no newbie to therapy, but that would be the first thing, you know, to sit back and try, yeah, you know, to try to just be able to empathize with the other side. And in this environment, there's lots of sides. There's the lender side, the agent side, you know, there's the internal folks that work the file. And then of course there's the homeowner. So empathy is absolutely a must.
 

[00:10:18] Leah Zlatkin: I would say also to be successful in brokering, you have to have a very holistic perspective on things. As a broker, you're not going to succeed in this business unless you really, really, really do care about your clients. And when you have a partner who doesn't care about your clients, that's really going to impede the process. And luckily for us, MCAN is a partner who cares. They care about getting people to the finish line. They care about helping people buy their homes and get their refinancing. And from a holistic perspective, if you're a broker who just cares about the dollars, you're not going to be very successful. When we coach and talk to clients, sometimes we can't offer a client the best solution and being empathetic and understanding, okay, well, you know what? I don't have a solution for you, but here's what you should be doing and here's who you should be talking to. And maybe you're best off just renewing your mortgage at your existing provider because they're going to give you a low rate. They're not going to offer you any kind of penalty. Like that's where you should go. And by being empathetic, that's how you as a broker will win. They will maybe not use you for this transaction, but they will use you for the next transaction, or they'll send their friends to you and their family members to you. And that works the exact same way with our lender partners. So on the other side of the street, the successful brokers who are empathetic to their clients will also want to work with partners who are empathetic towards them. And by having everybody invested in the client success, that's how we're getting to the finish line. And I do think that that's hypercritical, and I tend to gravitate towards lenders who do offer empathy to us and to our clients, because I feel like they're invested in our client success the same way I'm invested in my client success.
 

[00:12:05] Fergal McAlinden: Okay, interesting. So that feeds a little bit into my next question then, which is about what happens when operational issues arise and how lenders and brokers maintain trust when those issues come up. What are your thoughts there? What's the best way to maintain trust whenever things go wrong?
 

[00:12:22] Leah Zlatkin: Leanne mentioned therapy and mentioned relationships. And I would say that communication is the most critical component here when it comes to operational issues, which are arising more and more these days. You know, sometimes somebody is on holiday or somebody is on a leave or, you know, a document is not exactly right, but it was reviewed a little bit later than we expected. Having those open lanes of communication and saying, hey, look. We're a bit delayed. So-and-so's on holiday or, you know, it's Remembrance Day today and so-and-so's not working and we need to talk about this file and we're going to review it tomorrow. And letting people understand the timelines and timeframes involved and being very upfront and honest about what that timing looks like, that's how we get past those things. And then when we do have challenges, so you get a document and something doesn't look exactly right or there's... you know, a bit of a snafu. You thought the income was going to be like this, but it's actually like that. Having that conversation early on so that we can find a solution together, that is hyper critical. And so it's about the partnership. It's about the collaboration and it's about the shared problem solving because one person may not create a solution on their own, but the both of us working together, Leanne and I on the phone together or working with her underwriters or working with my underwriters, we're going to get to the finish line. We're going to find the right solution.
 

[00:13:46] Leanne Conroy: And I will say, just to add to that, from the other sides, what would happen when you don't have that open communication? And we all know scenarios where, you know, there's a little bit of confrontation, individuals operationally might, you know, what we call it, turtle, like you just kind of hide. Well, that always escalates. It has a snowball effect. And the small little issue, if we had a... looked after at the onset, like Leah had said, will just snowball into a huge issue the longer it takes and the longer people kind of shy away from it. Because, you know, sometimes it can be very, like the situations can get aggressive, but that's when we haven't looked after the small problem right at the get-go. And so that's why that constant communication is key. And that's why when, you know, when we're looking for new team members, we're looking for people who aren't afraid to tackle issues head on and right away.
 

[00:14:50] Fergal McAlinden: So you two have obviously built a really strong relationship and your two companies. But Leanne, I'm wondering from the lender side, whenever you're dealing with a broker, maybe someone that you haven't dealt with before or someone who's looking to form a relationship with you. Is there anything that you would advise them in terms of what they should avoid? Mistakes that are commonly made that you see whenever they're dealing with lenders?
 

[00:15:11] Leanne Conroy: I have a funny story to tell about an agent that I was communicating with on via email. And he was obviously very upset. And you can feel that through, you know, the shortness and the exclamation marks times 50 on the email. And so I made the mistake. So this was my mistake. I thought, you know what, I've got to quell this scenario right away. And I called him right away just to deal with it. And he was upset. And I said, I'm sorry that you're, this is the second mistake I made. I'm sorry you're having a bad day. And then his response was, I'm having a bad day. He goes, you're having a bad day. And it was just like, you know, I thought, geez, Leanne. Here's the advice I should have gave myself and I would give to an agent in the same scenario is that you have to take a step back, especially if you know that you're feeling heated or upset. You have to take a step back and you have to listen. And so that was a new and non-relationship that I had with an agent. And I probably, I don't know if we've ever spoken since. But, you know, for scenarios like that, it's taking the time to figure out what's wrong and not stepping into the fire and not being reactionary. And sometimes, to circle back to your original question that you even asked, just avoiding that urge to be reactionary. Because of course, like Leah had mentioned, we care about the client. At the end of the day, we have a client here that we have to find a solution for. And so taking a step back. And so to answer, again, your original question was... That's the advice I would give to agents. Deal with lenders that you already have a relationship with or work on building that relationship so that you can avoid any of those reactionary conversations.
 

[00:17:02] Leah Zlatkin: I'd love to dovetail on that as well. One of the things that we notice, so I run a large brokerage, like obviously broker business, but I also run a brokerage along with my two partners. And we've got over 200 agents. When it comes to those 200 agents, some of them are newer and some of them are more experienced. And one piece of advice that I always try and impart on our agents is this industry has a lot of people in it, but you're going to see the same faces pop up time and time and time again. Whether it's at one lender or whether they move somewhere else, you're going to see the same people in this industry over and over again. And a little bit of kindness goes a very long way. One of the biggest mistakes I see some brokers make is... You will be having trouble on one file and you will call a lender and you will scream at that lender. I guarantee you, you are burning bridges. And when you call that lender and scream about one deal of the hundred deals that you might process this year, that lender all of a sudden thinks you're A, a hothead, B, somebody who they don't really want to work with because they don't respect and understand boundaries, or C, somebody who doesn't quite have their files put together properly. And then is complaining that the lender isn't executing XYZ way. And so you're just setting yourself up to look really, really bad. And so that lender may be hesitant to look at your files first. They might put you on the back burner when they've got other stuff going on because they recognize that they don't really want to interact with you. And I'm not saying Leanne's team would do this. I'm just saying the industry as a whole, you know, the same people are going to be everywhere. So if you do not approach lenders with a little bit of kindness and a little bit of empathy. Very soon, you're not going to have any lenders who want to work with you, who want to prioritize your files and who want to help you get to the finish line on those files. And so I think from a broker perspective, the most important thing is take a deep breath, recognize everybody's working towards the same goal and having a shared conversation. Hey, you know, so and so, I know we really want to help this client get their mortgage closed. I'm understanding that you don't like these documents. I'm understanding that maybe the file wasn't put together in the best way. How can we set this up properly moving forward? Where do we go from here? Instead of deciding all of a sudden that it's the lender's fault, it's the lender's problem, they haven't done this, they haven't done that, and calling them and taking your frustration out on them, self-reflect a little bit, take a little bit of ownership, recognize that you could have contributed to this too. And maybe the lender's being difficult, but how do we work together to get to a solution? Because everybody wants that mortgage to fund with their lender. Everybody wants it. The lender wants it. You want it. Everybody wants it to fund together. How do you be empathetic and how do you be reasonable to lending partners? Especially knowing that people move around a lot. So, you know, Leanne's at MCAN today and I hope she's at MCAN for a long time, but a lot of people do move lenders. So you might see somebody at one lender today and a different lender tomorrow. And now all of a sudden, a lender that you were using maybe in the past that you've burned a bridge with before, that new person comes over and you may not be able to use that lender anymore. So it's really important for new agents and new brokers in the industry and even those who are a little bit more tenured to remember to take a breath and recognize that you need to take self-ownership before you blame other people and to figure out how we can use kindness to get this file moving forward. And I think that's really, really important. And a lot of people forget that.
 

[00:20:42] Leanne Conroy: You know what, Leah, what the term that comes into my brain, it's just dying to shoot it out. That coupled with that kindness is professional courtesy. Like we could do an entire seminar on having professional courtesy. But from every side, right? There are underwriters that need to remember professional courtesy, and then there are agents that need to remember professional courtesy.
 

[00:21:04] Leah Zlatkin: And I think along with that is remembering, and this is from a broker side, it's remembering that lenders don't work for you. Lenders work with you. And I think a lot of brokers and a lot of new agents have this idea in their mind, oh, well, it's the lender. They're working for me on this file. No, absolutely not. They're working with you and they get to choose you and they get to choose your deals. Just like you get to choose which lender you're working with. It's a mutual choice. And if they don't want to work with you, they may not accept your files moving forward. If you lack that professional courtesy that Leanne was just speaking to and you readily pick up the phone and yell at their staff or yell at them, like nobody wants to work with somebody who's berating people or who's, you know, demeaning people on the phone. You want to work with people who you have a mutual understanding and a mutual respect with.
 

[00:21:55] Fergal McAlinden: Yeah, for sure. And as Leanne mentioned, I mean, exclamation points times 50 on an email, probably not the best way to start things off with a lender or with a broker. But anything else come to mind on ways for newer brokers or BDMs to build partnerships with each other? Or any other advice that either of you have?
 

[00:22:11] Leanne Conroy: From my standpoint, I think being loyal and fair is one thing. But you're remembering that from both sides, you're looking for a mutual relationship that is growing. So, you know, I'm looking to grow, you're looking to grow. And I think to go back again to that empathy piece. So you've got to always put yourself in the other person's shoes.
 

[00:22:35] Leah Zlatkin: I also like the idea of a sort of shared game plan. And this might not be relevant for newer agents or newer brokers, but I think to establish a partnership with someone, even if you're early into the industry. You might have a lender that you really click with that, you know, provides you advice on files and provides you help with files and, you know, gives you guidance as you're newer and starting out. And as you get more senior in your role, you know that you're going to have XYZ volume of files per year. So having a conversation with, you know, Leanne or your lending partners towards the beginning of the year and saying, hey, look, this year, I really want to try and, you know, get X number of B files done this year. I do get a lot of B business. I want to figure out how to make that work with you guys, how we can sort of, you know, move business towards a specific lender. If they have a niche that, you know, you're getting a lot of clients that fit this niche. Maybe you're getting a lot of clients who have, you know, a certain type of business for self or whatever and saying, how do we open these avenues so that we can make sure that these files are prioritized. If I'm getting one file a month that's going to be fitting into this bucket and I'm sending it to you, how do we prioritize these things? How do we build space into the numbers to make sure that you guys can accommodate this? And having that shared game plan from the beginning is going to be really helpful to make sure that you can get to the finish line and that your files are being looked at in an organized and efficient way as you send them in. So I think a shared game plan is a great way to have that conversation. And even if you're newer into the industry and you're saying, hey, yeah, I know that you guys have a great niche in XYZ and I'd love to send you these files. What's the best way for me to do it? I think I'm probably going to get about 10 files like this a year. How do I make sure that we're sending those to you and that you guys are reviewing them quickly so that we can know whether this is an MCAN file? Different things like that.
 

[00:24:30] Leanne Conroy: And when you're building the partnerships and if you're newer to the industry, remember, too, that to keep your partnerships smaller, like the number of partnerships. I mean, it would be impossible to date 100 people and to try to manage the personalities of 100 people. So it's almost like a dating relationship. You're starting small and you're building on that. We can only juggle so many balls at the same time. But you find lenders that you gel with and you work with well. And so keep that pool of lenders relatively small. And then when you need to branch out, you look to your brokerage for assistance with that.
 

[00:25:08] Leah Zlatkin: And I think that's like a great tangent for this is more probably relevant for broker owners or, you know, more senior brokers. But one piece of that is if you're an agent who gets, you know, 100 files a year and you're sending them to 100 different lenders. Well, you've got a very small relationship with each of those different lenders. If you know who satisfies a certain niche and who's going to do this particular type of file really well, well, maybe 10% of my files are going to fit into that bucket. So I'm going to try and send all 10 of those to this particular lender. And if I know that my other files are going to be, you know, like straight A files that are, you know, doctor, lawyer, whatever, and I've got 20% of my files like that, I'm probably going to send those to a particular lender. And by establishing that relationship, you can make sure that those people know you, that they pick up your calls, that they are answering those emails, and that they can prioritize your files. But if you're 1 in 100 that you're sending in a file to them, they also have 99 other files on their desk. And 10 of those might be from one particular broker partner who they've established a relationship with. Of course, they're going to prioritize those because they're regularly getting files from that broker. So as a brokerage... or as a top performing agent, when you do have a large volume of files, if you know that one lender satisfies this particular niche really well, and you get a lot of clients like that, well, establish a relationship and establish a game plan early on so they know what to anticipate from you and they can make sure that they have breadth and bandwidth to accommodate your files.
 

[00:26:43] Fergal McAlinden: So know your lender and know which deals to send to the right lender, right? Great stuff. Okay, look, we're going to leave things there for today. I want to thank you both, first of all, for coming on. Really great conversation. Plenty of great advice there for brokers, BDMs, lenders, on how to build a really strong and productive relationship. So thank you both. Great conversation. And I'm sure we'll talk very soon.
 

[00:27:03] Leanne Conroy: Thank you so much for having me today.
 

[00:27:04] Leah Zlatkin: Bye, friends.
 

[00:27:05] Narrator: All right. Well, that is just about all we have time for on today's edition of CMP Talk. My thanks once again to Leanne Conroy of MCAN and Lea Zlatkin from Mortgage Outlet for joining us. Thanks to you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
 

[00:27:17] Narrator: Thank you for tuning in to CMP Talk. You can listen to the latest episodes on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and all major listening channels. Just search for CMP Talk.